In the words of the wise:

People killing people dying
Children hurtin you hear them crying
Can you practice what you preach
Would you turn the other cheek?
Father Father Father help us
Send some guidance from above
Cause people got me got me questioning
Where is the love?

- Wannabe Lawyer

The moral of the story is don't be a jerk and try to be nice to other people.

ha...poor Ephraim.....

this is certainly more interesting than serial dramas.

though ephraim comes across to me as a narrow minded sycophant, I dont think he should be penalised for his opinions, anymore than bloggers that ephraim speaks against should get censored
-
"If we are to survive as a free democracy, then we must be prepared, in principle, to concede to our enemies - even those who do not subscribe to our views - as much(sic)constitutional rights as you concede yourself" - Legislative Assembly Debates, Sept 21, 1955, Lee Kwan Yew

I agree with you, except that "penalised" is a bit of an understatement. He's being drawn and quartered, some of the stuff comes pretty close to criminal intimidation, and for what?

He points out that swearing is not a good thing. I swear as much as anybody, but I'm inclined to agree on that: not swearing is indeed better than swearing.

All those people flaming him (But I suspect, the 400 comments are largely the work of a small handful of boliao people who want to create an artificial crowd) like to profess that they are so "enlightened" and "rebellious" just because they have the "liberty" so swear like a sailor but unfortunately they just come across as narrow-minded and syncopatic as those "PAP types" they profess to hate!

And to me they manifest this "monkey see monkey do" mentality which is for me the most unsavoury aspect of Singaporeans.

Now if rockson would just do the decent thing and call for some peace and quiet instead of egging on the crowd...

It really pisses me off that pretentious people like xiaxue and ephraim loy are given so much coverage by the local media when its clear to anyone with half a brain that they only adopt a moralistic tone to put themselves in the limelight !

Whats wrong with a personal blog with colourful words?
Want to blame, blame the media for using our blogs as stories.
Our blogs are not meant to help them keep their ricebowl.

We've already witnessed the power of tomorrow.sg on propelling nobodies to fame. Right now, it's tomorrow.sg + ST combining to drive the poor guy to hide his photos and archives on his blog. Amazing.
On a side note, TNP seems to be picking up regularly on tomorrow's referrals as news feeds, albeit with a time lag. Isn't it enough that they regularly feature overseas football news articles, which we can find freely on the net?

Trackback from carthasis of a virgin undergraduate:

What Ephraim Spells For The Singaporean Blogsphere and Political Discourse...

given that most of us do blog, I think we should be able to appreciate the dynamics of how readers interact with the bloggers in question. it could be adoration by the masses, or vilification by the same.

one could choose to use a blogging medium that restricts users (xanga), remove all means for readers to leave messages (blogspot templates) - or we could resolve to take the good with the bad, with the understanding that its part and parcel of public blogging

"The world is independent of my will" 6.373, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus - Wittgenstein

to sieteocho:

where ever did rockson egged his readers to flame Eprhaim Loy? And why should a blogger even try to (if it's possible at all) direct the actions of his readers?

i think people like ephraim are utterly blinkered in that they view style (i.e. the vulagrity strewn way of writing) without realising that the substance (i.e. the content) is more important. I hope Mr Loy learns something from this. And know that you are belittling people when you assume (implicitly) that the reason why people read Rockson is because it is so vulgar.

Noone will start sprouting vulgarities and write in expletives just because they read Rockson.

Plus it doesnt help that his blogs are littered with his "oh celebraties are demi-gods and i took a pic with them" posts.

And on one occasion he actually slimed xiaxue's looks and character as well. (of course all these have been taken down)

Between a vulgar blog with social conscience and social message and a frivolous blog about chasing celebrities and showing how "connected" one is in the "entertainment world", the answer is clear as to which one I rather my children will read.

I concur.

"Freedom of the intellect means the freedom to report what one has seen, heard, and felt, and not to be obliged to fabricate imaginary facts & feelings" - George Orwell

I think whether you agree with Ephraim or not depends upon how you interpret his letter. I wouldn't agree with "Rockson's blog is unworthy" or "Rockson's blog should be taken down" or "Rockson's blog should be censored", but I agree with "Why should Lime endorse a blog like that without warning people about the vulgarities".

And no, I'm not criticising the average reader of Rockson's blog, rather that most of the 400 comments in that post are quite lacking in civility. Yes, most people would read the blogs without picking up the vulgar language , but people are going to think most S'pore blogs are strewn with vulgar language.

Rockson didn't explicitly encourage people to flame Ephraim, but he did say these things:
a.) woe is me, somebody criticised my blog for vulgar language. (Is this true? I thought Ephraim was criticising Lime rather than Rockson.)
b.) I feel acutely embarrassed.
c.) I didn't know so many people were reading my blog. (yah right)
d.) maybe I should close it down.

And he probably didn't know that saying these things would stir up a lynch mob, but somebody out there got really mad reading it and that's what happened. In other words, although Rockson probably didn't intend to egg his readers on, his comments are a little incendiary.

Now Ephraim's blog isn't as worthy as Rockson's (how many are?) but it doesn't deserve to be closed down, neither does he deserve to be hounded out of existence. I mean people put pictures on their blog most of the time, what's the big deal? I was quite disgusted when xiaxue's readers caused Fiona Xie to close down her blog (no I'm not a Fiona fan) and I didn't think I'd see something like that again.

Come on, do you really believe Ephraim Loy's claim that he did not know about the x-rated content of Rockson's blog given the extensive coverage on Rockson the past months ? I'm guessing you and AG are still students who have yet to have a taste of the real world and are probably a little naive because those of us who have been there can see thru the goody-two-shoes act and can detect the BS a mile away !

Is it wrong to BS? What's wrong with being a hypocrite? Have YOU never been one? Never backstabbed anyone just to get an advantage over somebody? Because if you haven't then, you're the saintliest person I've ever met.

But if you have, your holier-than-thou attitude and assumption that we have not had a taste of the real world is pure bullshit.

It is precisely because I've seen how people backstab and bullshit that I wonder - how many people who flame Ephraim for being a hypocrite is actually a saint.

So please use your brains before you talk.

Well Rockson is famous but not *that* famous. And the main point - that there are Lime readers who are unaware of rockson's blog - is of course valid.

I'm not a student anymore. I think AG is, though. I'm a little suspicious of rockson. I'm very suspicious of those flamers on his website.

I'm beginning to see where this is coming from, some of you think that there is some traditional print media conspiracy to bring down the Singapore blogosphere, and that Ephraim is a part of it? That's understandable. However there are difficult facts you have to confront:

1. Xiaxue is a journalist in Today, Mr Brown and Mr Miyagi have their own columns. The line between traditional print media and blogosphere is not distinct. Ephraim is a journalist and has a blog too. Then how come XX, Mr B, Mr M are "bloggers" whereas Ephraim is a "journalist"?
2. One would have thought, from Ephraim's comment, "why not put up more worthy blogs?", that he is pro- blogosphere.

Now I don't like traditional print media dissing blogs, I have no comment about rockson's blog itself, but I think the horde (if you can call a few guys repeated spamming of rockson's site a horde) is a discredit to the blogosphere. It'll be interesting, though, to see the IP addresses of the people who commented on rockson's blog, and find out how many different bloggers there really are.

If Ephraim had an issue with Lime, then why did he not bring this up to this magazine instead of commenting about this in the ST Forum ?

Maybe he did, but since print media in Singapore is one giant conspiracy, Lime forwarded his letter ST instead?

Jokes aside, why don't you show me the section in Lime magazine devoted to social commentary?

I think everyone in SG knows that if you are not happy with something, write to ST Forum because it's complain bulletin board. Yeah even if it's because someone didn't flush after using the toilet at Parco Bugis Junction...

He also did devote a paragraph on how the media seems to be interested on trivial things than more important issues at hand. I don't really follow his blog, but it seems that he was also quite pissed with ST?

Make this clear. This whole hoo haa is INDEED caused by Rockson. If he didn't write the part about not shooting so much or PCC or whatever he wrote,I doubt his readers would be flaming Mr Loy so.

"And why should a blogger even try to (if it's possible at all) direct the actions of his readers?"

Is it not possible? Go read the XX supporters supporting her after she whined about her lack of support. Minus XX name and put in any other celebrity blogger and you have the same situation.
Why? I don't know. To show to the rest of the blogsphere their control over their minions who mindlessly do what they say?

"And know that you are belittling people when you assume (implicitly) that the reason why people read Rockson is because it is so vulgar."

Where in his post did he belittle them for reading Rockson's vulgar posts? He just said they "just come across as narrow-minded and syncopatic as those "PAP types" they profess to hate!" Where does it say "people read rockson because it is so vulgar"?

What is it you wish Mr Loy to learn from this? That his concern over your children's possible exposure to expletives on the internet is wrong? That it is indeed okay to have people flame him over his (narrow-minded) views? That in Singapore, you're not allowed to have your own views without people insulting your looks, your family and whatever else they insult?

If you think his blog is mindless, then so be it. I don't see him saying anything like "Rockson's blog is vulgar. Mine is better. Mine shoulda been featured." So why are you comparing the two blogs in the first place?

Actually, the flaming already started *before* Rockson did anything.

yes, but after the article it got much worse. because those that didn't know about it before got to know about it and then joined in the fun.

Rockson is a good guy.

where got take down

http://ephraim.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_ephraim_archive.html

replace "08" and "2005" with the mth/year you desire to read.

Check out Nov 23 entry. HYPOCRITE!!!

let me get this straight. someone criticises some blogs for their use of language (or perhaps the lack of warning for referring articles), then hordes of angry singaporeans track down the person's blog to perform a virtual stoning?

methinks the hordes of angry singaporeans have too much time on their hands.

right on.

Sometimes, it's ok to let people criticise. You know, bloggers don't have to defend every single time one of theirs is criticised. It's not going to going to undermine anything. Now, the whole things just smacks of intolerance.

And if I read another, "look how powerful tomorrow.sg is", "see the power of blogs" statement, I'm going to puke. Tomorrow.sg is influential within the blogosphere. Ephraim and Rockson have not been propelled to fame among anyone who doesn't have a blog.

On a different note, today's letter in ST forum is hilarious. First, there's Harvey says XX's and Rockson's blogs have "substance". Ok granted rockson might deal with some issues, but XX's? It;s entertaining but I'm not sure she was going for "substance" - unless "substance be drawings of SPG's breats.

then he says: "Adopting a persona of a less educated Ah Beng, Talk Rock necessarily speaks in the voice of the downtrodden and marginalised in society, hence the liberal use of coarse language. Sometimes, we become so insulated, we forget there are many people who really talk like Talk Rock!"

Wow, I did not know ah beng's were considered downtrodden and marginalised and that Talk Rock is givng them a voice. Ok, maybe that statement is correct. I tried to get my an ah beng to verify but he didn't understand what downtrodden and marginalised meant.

Also, I was wondering how many people really talk like that. My impression is that Ah beng's typically do not take the trouble to express their views on social issues in English, albeit littered with hokkien swear words.

""At the end of the day, if Mr Loy is so outraged by blogs like Talk Rock, there's always the 'Exit' tab on the top left-hand corner of his computer keyboard.""

Ok, unless there is some sort of editing error, Harvey has a new-fangled keyboard with tabs and words like "exit" on it. At the end of the day, Ephraim read something that outraged him and wrote about it. So did Harvey.

it is an editing error. it's supposed to read exit tab on the computer screen.

so u want rockson to not only adopt an ah beng's persona but also to block in chinese/hokkien?

This Eframe is just trying to gain fame and stature. Look at all those high profile events he attended and the pictures he took. Yet few people know about his blog and he resort to write bad comments to the forum. Although he did not state his blog, it is understandable he cannot stand that people are attracted to "rude" blogs rather than his "celebrity" website. I don't believe no vulgarities is thrown at his face during his national service. His website even have Singlish, talkingcock link and sex drive meter so it's obvious he write without thinking of the consequences and outrage from Rockson's fans and supporters who will go all out to defend him.

Live and let live. Surely the world is big enough to accomodate views that differs from our own.

we can only hope.

I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight for your right to say it.
-- Voltaire

i think a guy of his age reading lime magazine is really... hmm... worrying. lol. seriously, which kid doesn't swear nowadays.

I personally reject the whole point of modern vocal censorship using only *beep* sounds, which, will immediately tell you that an explicit word has been spoken.

Why the trouble when people will still guess and think about what as been spoken.

If you say that those words will affect the children:

1. Won't they find out sooner or later?
2. Won't the *beeping* sound cause more curiousity to learn it?
3. If the child knows what word has been said, wouldn't the beep sound just make the word more abvious in my mind, from all the other words that was said.

I believe anyone, and if not everyone, in their life, will know about explicit words, and it is just a matter of education, that can limit them to the usage of those words.

Therefore, I believe that education beats any form of censorship.

OOps, correction for point 3.

3. If the child knows what word has been said, wouldn't the beep sound just make the word more obvious in their minds, from all the other words that was said?

Yup. We should all grow up. Teenagers too. Don't attack Eframe because he is a hero now. Singapore's future leader of the Eduation Ministry. Show him some respect. Look at all those famous people he's been with. We are jealous of him like he is jealous of famous bloggers. Same guy with 2 stripes.

small doses of reality in a controlled environment should be a good thing for impressionable kids

Therefore I will try to sum up the saga amidst my flu and the occassional headache:

1. Ephraim complains that Rockson's blog is vulgar (saw the URL via Lime magazine, complains it on ST Forum).
2. The Rockson's Hordes (as sietocho, and endless hours of AoE II, will say) starts to take a dig at Ephraim (e.g. questioning his sexuality etc.)
3. Everybody tells us that Ephraim is a journalist with connections with the influential.
4. Somebody tells us that Rockson personifiies the anti-hero that the masses glorify.
5. A lot of people here seem to generate quotes from books/places I've never seen.
6. Everybody feels that there is a big conspiracy directed by the Government to undermine and suppress avenues of discontent and expressions of the masses.

And therefore I await for replies.

Wooohooo.... Another firestorm over one of my fave blogger! But why the anti-pap slant? Gahmen seem to be receiving bad publicity nowadays like everything bad is bcos of Gahmen, very interesting...

Trackback from Jeff Yen's blog:

Rockson reminds me of Whitman, America's greatest poet (at least to me, because he's the only American poet I kind of read on and off). ...

I like rockson's blog. I also think ephraim (wow piang his name hard to rem) has his point, but he has made it too subjective towards rockson. note. rockson has never publicised his blog. it's the media. so why blame someone for blogging privately? true, maybe he started to blog for his 'audience', but it's always been a "ni qing wo yuen" .. what's wrong reading vulgarities...grrr... pple use it on daily life (me too)... it's just a reflection of a part of a society...

if it's really some conspiracy, den i think it's very lame... it's not some strategic great planning, it's just some loser's way of trying to bring someone down.

ops.. will i get into a suit? hmmm ;)